Talk:Patrick Harrington (activist)

Alternative Green

Thank you. I will be able to contribute more to this discussion in time. FK

I've edited to reflect your info. Hope this works for you but let me know if you have any issues with it. Dogville 23:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Okay, I'm not as up-to-date with WJS as yourself. I will check out the link. Southgate would have publicised the magazine (I have not seen this either but will also check out!) simply - one presumes - because he beleives it worhty of a greater readership. I think this is reasonable human behaviour - shows there is no "sour grapes" on his part. I can categorically state (for what this is worth) that he had no involvement with Issue 36. The postal address appears to be correct. Cheers, Franz K.

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for the delay; I've been busy. A couple more comments/questions.

• WJS does seem to be connected with the New Right. He had an article in their publication, "New Imperium", as he has in previous Troy Southgate-related pubs. [1]

• If Southgate had no involvement in issue 36 of AG, how did he come to publicise it on the Rose Noire mailing list? [2]

• Is the PO Box address still Alternative Green, P.O. Box 52838, London SW11 1ZU? It should go on the Alternative Green entry.

Hope to get back to this in a day or so. I think we'll be able to reach a consensus on a different wording fairly easily.

ps we seem to be getting these comments in a rather confusing order; they should be chronological one way or the other, I guess.

--Dogville 08:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello Dogville. I will try and answer your questions but please put me right if I have omitted any. Firstly the editor of AG -Adrian White - does not own a computer! Correspondence is by letter or telephone. There is therefore no presence on the web. I can supply you with their post box address if that would be of any use. The magazine aims to come out annually therefore it has been three years since Troy Southgate's involvement. I appreciate the need for accurate (published) sources (even if inaccurate!) but surely as there is no connection now with the Cercle/New Right then it can be ammended as an historical connection. WJS is not connected with the New Right though (I believe) he was connected with Troy Southgate in the past. Secondly re the Taking Liberties issue of Third Way - I think the point needs to be made that there was an article analysing and criticising Griffin's piece but that Griffin's piece was indeed included on the basis of civil liberties (of free expression). If I can help further please let me know, thank you for being sensitive in your response and please indicate if either ammendments/changes or ommittance to the above two sections are in order. I will now go to the AG site which I have not done previously (perhaps I should but I didn't know it existed - no excuse!). Thank you, Franz Kafka

I edited the page on Patrick Harrington re Alternative Green after talking to and corresponding with the editor. When I mentioned Cercle de la rose noire he hadn't got a clue what I was talking about. When I mentioned the Troy Southgate connection he explained that following Richard Hunt's stroke there was an editorial board which edited two issues. I don't think this was to Richard Hunt's liking (but this I cannot be sure) - Adrian White, the current editor, has edited ever since (three years). Therefore in any meanigful and contemporay way there is no connection with the Cercle... site. Further - re the issue from Third Way on Taking Liberties - I think it is important to show that that very issue contained a companion article to Griffin's that both analysed and critiqued his piece. This is factual - evidence is the magazine itself! I'm not sure how all this works so I hope my words are read and treated sensitively. Thank you. If I am to use a "name" in this discussion let it be Franz Kafka.

Well, hello then Franz. Thanks for the information. One problem is that technically Wikipedia rules only allow info with a published source -- so for example if the NY Times says someone was born in 1958 and the person himself tells you it was actually 1957, you can't correct that unless you can get the NY Times or someone else to publish the right info first. (This is the "no original research" rule, and it's because if unsourced info was allowed to stand it would be even harder to work out what's true on here.)

None of this would be a problem if Alternative Green wasn't so hard to track down. As I say, I've tried and failed to find a presence for it online, and failed to find it in almost any university library. Can you point me to a source for the magazine?

I don't quite understand the 3 year gap thing, though -- the Harrington interview was published in issue 36 (apparently), only 3 issues after the one which is cited on article on Alternative Green itself as having the Cercle (now New Right, it transpires) members on the board. How regularly is AG published? Indeed, the guy who interviewed Harrington (Wayne John Sturgeon) is on record as being part of the Southgate NRF/Cercle/New Right crew, so even if the magazine is now a different thing the association is there in the interview itself.

By the way, once we sort this out you may want to look at correcting the info on Alternative Green's own page. But some source for the magazine (library/website) would be a very helpful step. Dogville 19:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Original comments

Removed two chatty parentheticals by 80.225.11.193:

Le Cercle de la rose noire (the editor of Alternative Green has not even heard of this group!)

This may be true but we need a source, given that three of the 4 members cited on the editorial board page in issue 33 (3 before the issue that published the Harrington interview) were also credited on Rose Noire's website. It's no doubt coincidental that that website was deleted in its entirety yesterday. See Cercle de la rose noire article for details.

Note also that the author of the interview with Pat Harrington, Wayne John Sturgeon, was not only credited on the Rose Noire website, but was author of many interviews with Troy Southgate, including on the now-defunct National Revolutionary Front website (see article for links to archive).

Troy Southgate, an editor of Alternative Green (he has had nothing to do with Alternative Green for over three years and was never an editor per se but did serve on an editorial board for two issues)

Edited article to reflect this claim.

As 80.225.11.193 is so well informed on the subject (s)he might have added for the record who the editor of Alternative Green is. Dogville 21:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Whole Earth magazine

The following para has now been inserted twice:

The respected US magazine Whole Earth has said: "Perhaps becuase Third Way party executive board member Patrick Harrington was formerly a leader in the National Front in the 1980s, the watchdogs of the British left have seen the Third Way as some kind of extreme-right trick to co-opt the left's pet issues. It would seem more likely, however, that when Harrington admits, 'I have revised some of my former views as unsound,' he means what he says, and that the Third Way represents a genuine attempt to break out of old ideological traps." Whole Earth, Summer 2000.

I've removed it twice because (i) 'respected' is NPOV; (ii) all this constitutes is the journalist's opinion re the reality of PH's ideological transformation. Opinion is no use here; we could doubtless come up with quotes from plenty of people who believe the same thing; and plenty of others who think he is presenting the same old wine in new bottles. PH's apparent ideological journey is certainly relevant and of interest but is better documented by examining and giving context to his own statements (eg in the Green Anarchist interview) than by listing people that do and don't believe him without explaining their qualifications to make such judgements or the basis on which they do.

Dogville 15:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Make that three times. Dogville 18:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Message from a supporter of the Way in response

I've listened to your argument and you've convinced me. I shall not reinsert!

Discussion re proposed deletion, 2004

Article listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion Apr 20 to Apr 26 2004, kept as consensus was not reached. Discussion:

Page was created by user:dissidentcongress who, based on other things (c.f. Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress and MediaWiki:VfD-Populist Party UK) appears to be a vandal who is updating pages for either vanity or publicity reasons. No evidence that Harrington is a major figure in any way, shape, or form. Snowspinner 22:25, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• Hmm, don't know. Patrick Harrington is a real figure and was a cause célèbre for the National Front over his student days in a mostly left-wing college in 1984. He's not so notable now though. (He sent me email once) Dbiv 23:34, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. I recall the brouhaha at the time. This is what encyclopedias are for, distasteful and misguded as the politics of Harrington might be. --Tagishsimon
• Keep. Cribcage 05:51, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

End discussion

Ethnicity

I have heard that PH has Irish hertigage, can anyone confirm or deny? Vintagekits 03:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

He is of Irish extraction (as is confirmed in his election address for the Vauxhall consituency where he stood as an Official NF candidate in the 80s). I have heard suggestions that he is related to an IRA leader of the 50s and has a lot of Irish relatives in both North and South. He tried to prevent NF demonstrations against Bloody Sunday marches on the basis that it played into establishment hands of playing one off against another. According to one person who I know who met him he seems to favour a Republican Sinn Fein line of a federal Ireland (within a United, reformed EU in his case). He is however sympathetic to the Protestant community seeing them as another rebel tradition gone down the wrong path. Some ex-NFers I know find him frightening, fanatical and distinctly off-message - Red Dawn

He is of Irish extraction on his Father's side. There is no evidence to suggest that he is related in any way to Sean Harrington (to whom I think RD is referring). The other comments are prejudicial and unsourced.

Hello,Patrick Harrington!

I understand that Patrick Harrington is a wikipedia editor. Which of you guys is it, then?--Streona (talk) 00:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I strongly suggest that this line is not pursued further. We have policies here, such as WP:Harass and WP:Outing that guarantee anonymity for our editors, however strongly you may disagree with their views, and I suggest you also look at WP:soapbox having seen some of your edits elsewhere. Voltaire, you know. --Rodhullandemu 01:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Paddy is actually Doublethink64 and Voltaire was a hypocrite. Furthermore I believe that all of my edits to substantive articles have been fair, even sympathetic to the very real problems that BNP members face in employment, unless you can show otherwise. Nonetheless the fact that they are represented by Pat Harrington and Lee Barnes probably adds to their difficulties. Keep it up,lads.--Streona (talk) 12:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

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Far-right?

The description of Harrington as far-right appears to be based on sources dating from many years back. Looking at these sources they don't explain why this description was appropriate even then. As the article indicates there has been a pattern of Harrington's views moving away from not just the far-right but the right. His latest positions appear to me to be a form of co-operative Socialism. I've also noted objections to the use of sources from Hope Not Hate on the basis that it is registered with the Electoral Commission as a campaigning organization and thus should not be relied on as a neutral source. May I ask that those putting in the description of far-right justify this on current sources and explain what views he currently holds that justify them in describing him in this way? Please also explain why Hope Not Hate should be treated as a neutral and reliable source to describe the politics of those it campaigns against. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustifiedRage (talk • contribs) 14:36, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

If you claim his position has changed, it is incumbent on you to provide independent reliable sources to substantiate that. Emeraude (talk) 09:39, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Rename and disambiguate

Patrick Harrington should become a disambiguation page. There is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here, certainly not this article.

So, what should the disambiguated name for this article become? Andy Dingley (talk) 12:40, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Patrick Harrington (activist) ? Emeraude (talk) 13:35, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that. Nor can I see anyone complaining that it's unfair to him. I'll probably do a page move here later tonight, unless there's any more comment. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:05, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi all. I recently created the page Patrick Harrington (barrister). I was going to hold off disambiguating for a bit, but after seeing this thread, I agree with the above and feel we should. There are now a few people with the same name and none are particularly exceptional to have the main page Patrick Harrington. Llemiles (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Sourcing for "far-right" descriptor

Emeraude, what does the "Linkages" source say about Harrington? I note that the other two sources, aside from plainly not being suitable as reliable sources for this purpose, do not actually describe Harrington as far-right. —Emufarmers^(T/C) 04:14, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

[www.thirdway.org is] "the site for the British nationalist, separatist, and anticapitalist organization Third Way. which was formed in 1990 from the splinters of the far-right National Front by one of that group's former--and most notorious--activists, Patrick Harrington. Inspired by a tradition of right-wing third-way and third-positionist movements, this Third Way, like other similar groups, purports to have abandoned (explicit) white-supremacist policies for a form of ethno-cultural-national segregation espousing mutual self-determiation, justified on the politics of difference. Inspired by, in its view, the working-class and anti-Hitler national socialism of Otto and Gregor Strassed, along with the mystical-pagan fascism of Julius Evola, it aligns itself with nationalist-religious revolutionary movements (as in Iran), the racial separatism of the Nation of Islam, and the participatory democratic ideals of Muammar al-Qaddafi's Libya.... Moreover, it draws on the Frankfurt School's critique of capitalist mass culture (especially Adorno; Horkheimer and Adorno), tinged with Oswald Spengler's notion of the decline of the West."

It goes on to discuss Third Way in more detail.

The other two sources are plainly reliable sources. Emeraude (talk) 10:06, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

I note that the "Linkages" source does not contain any references to back up what it claims in the section you quote. Are there references in the original? If so could you provide these references so that we can see what the evidence/justification is. For example is there a reference to show that Third Way has ever backed segregation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brookton Preston (talk • contribs) 18:35, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

I've no intention of posting a whole book! And segregation is not the only defining characteristic of right wing. Emeraude (talk) 09:24, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Emeraude, I don't expect you to post the whole book but simply tell us if the reference you quote actually backs up any of the statements it makes with the evidence itself. If it does then I've asked that you give details. I kind of assume from your rather defensive response that the claims your source makes are not referenced. Am I right? I'm also aware that a belief in multi-culturalism rather than segregation does not necessarily mean that you are not far-right. It does, undermine the credibility and reliability of your source material that it makes the assertion that the Third Way is in favour of racial segregation but when asked you are unable to provide any statement from that group indicating that this is so. Perhaps you could tell me what evidence there is that Third Way is far-right in respect of other policies (rather than just historically having emerged from the 'far-right'). It seems to me that at present you are failing to make a persuasive argument that Third Way or Harrington is currently 'far-right' but I want to explore this fully with you and give you every opportunity to argue your case. To this end can I ask that you respond directly to the questions I am putting to you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brookton Preston (talk • contribs) 14:55, 27 January 2020 (UTC)